. . . are condemned to repeat it.
I thought of this when looking toward this November, when it is a very real possibility that the GOP will retake the Virginia Senate (lost in 2007). For obvious reasons, there is some exciting on the right about the prospect. However, it is also leading to some dangerous amnesia – especially where the 36th district GOP primary is concerned.
Many of my close political friends have decided to back Tito Munoz in that primary against Jeff Frederick. Munoz is more electable, they say, and would cause fewer headaches for other GOP candidates, thus making it more likely that the Senate will flip over. I don’t agree with any of those assessments: Frederick has more histtory in the district, and Munoz has already been ripped by the Dems statewide.
I do, however, have one important question: does anyone remember what the “Republican” Virginia Senate was like? It wasn’t pretty.
The State Senate was taken out of a power-sharing arrangement and into GOP hands in the election of 1999. The Republican Senate majority had less than two years under its belt when it tried to halt Jim Gilmore’s car-tax phase-out. One year later (2002), with Gilmore out and Warner in, the Senate succeeded. The next five years included a tax-hike referendum in NoVa and Hampton Roads (voted down); a proposed tax hike in 2004 that was larger than what Mak Warner wanted; Warner’s tax increase; a proposed gas tax hike; and finally the HB3202 fiasco before the voters finally put the tax-addicted majority out of their misery in November 2007.
Now, this is not to say I want the current status quo in the State Senate: the Democrats tried to raise more taxes in six months than ther GOP colleagues tried in six years. What I am saying is that we have be careful about which Republicans we send t0 Richmond.
I will freely confess that I don’t know Tito Munoz. From what I’ve seen and heard of him, he is an earnest Republican, a nice guy, and a good businessman who will fit right in with the current GOP State Senate caucus.
That’s exactly what we need to avoid.
If we want to avoid the fiasco of the aughts, we need Senators who will not let Walter Stosch et al lead the caucus down the same disastrous path. We need rebels; we need gadflys; we need independent thinkers who will not follow the lemming leader over the cliff.
That’s why we need Jeff Frederick in Richmond. Though his time as party chair was brief (and it had its mistakes), it was at the beginning of it (the summer of 2008) when he threw down the gauntlet to his own Speaker and demanded tax hikes be taken out of any transportation plan. As a result, Speaker Howell was forced to shift gears; a much better plan was put forward; and Bob McDonnell was able to lead the GOP to victory in 2009.
The Republican Party can not win elections if voters confuse it with the pro-tax-hike Democrats. I don’t know if Tito Munoz understands this, but I’m certain Jeff Frederick does – and that is the most important reason Frederick is the better candidate, would be the better nominee, and will be a better State Senator.
well the question is – do the people of NoVa subscribe to the standard no-tax Republican philosophy that works in RoVa (rest of Virginia)?
If you actually want to win a seat for Republicans in NoVa – will the “no-tax no matter what” idea win out over electorates willingness to pay more for education and more for transportation?
Most of the local tax increases in NoVa – referenda mind you – for transportation and education have PASSED.
What killed 3202 was the same thing that killed the 2002 referenda which was essentially the creation of a slush fund rather than specific projects.
But I digress.
If the Republican Party can win NoVa by agreeing to let NoVa voters decide if they want to pay higher taxes – will the Republican party support them or will it insist on the Republican Party “no-tax” philosophy?
Maybe one more question.
Would Republicans support the ability of a locality citizens to vote in a referenda to increase taxes for things they want?
Which referenda were those, Larry? You admitted yourself the 2002 ones crashed and burned.
Oh, and of the six Republicans to win Fairfax County since 1996, three ran on Gilmore’s car-tax phase-out (Gilmore, Hager, and Earley 1997), one ran on national tax cuts (Bush ’00), and one (McDonnell ’09) promised not to raise taxes (the seventh, John Warner 2002, had no opposition).
So clearly, NoVa voters will support low-tax Republicans. High-tax Republicans, not so much.
how about these DJ?
http://www.fairfaxcounty.gov/dmb/advertised/fy2009/pdf/cip/11_tableF.pdf
here is some more: http://www.pwcgov.org/library/foundation/bond_referendum.htm
here’s more:
” Several counties, in an effort to meet increasing transportation needs and decreasing funds for secondary construction, have adopted bond referendums for transportation purposes. In the past 18 years, six counties have passed referendums totaling in excess of $1.0 billion, with Prince William, Stafford and Loudoun counties proposing referendums in November
2006 totaling more than $500 million and other future known referendums totaling $360 million by 2010. Figure 2 depicts the relative increase of the use of bond funds relative to the decrease in the secondary allocation.”
http://www.virginiadot.org/projects/resources/Feasibility.pdf page 14
the question is – does the Republican Party support the ability of citizens to vote for tax increases in referenda?
Those are bond referenda, not tax referenda. If the county chose, it could cut spending elsewhere to pay the annual payments.
You are also missing the main point, which is this: when Republicans in NoVa back higher taxes, they lose; when they don’t, they win.
many if not most – disclose that tax increases may be necessary.
so my question to you is once again – do you and the Republican party support the ability of local voters to CHOOSE to have a tax increase for something they want?
or do you believe that local citizens should not have that right?
no waffling…
Local citizens can do what they like, Larry. I’m fine with that, and last I checked, so is the party.
That doesn’t mean either I or they think the tax increases are altogether wise.
I also think this is about the third or fourth time I’ve answered the question.
At the time of elimination of the car tax, virginia was already a very lean state; the car tax had been bringing $1.0 billion into localities – the state had to pick up this amt from somewhere – and as usual, the democrats had to correct the problem and in the process, took the blame for more taxes. Simply put, how does a govt run when $1.0 biillion is taken out of the revenue stream? duh………it has to comee from somewhere!!!
I never really understood exactly what Gilmore was trying to achieve. It appeared that he wanted to take away the ability to tax cars from the localities but the implementation has turned out to be an albatross (IMHO) around the necks of the GA who have to continue to either “reimburse” or give back the tax authority.
Let me help… The Car Tax elimination does one thing. It transfers funds from the largest revenue sources, the income and sales taxes, and sends it to the localities to replace the Car Tax, or PPTRA (Personal Property Tax Reduction Act)….
It was capped at $950,000,000, when IMHO VA Sen. Chichester cut a deal with then Gov. Mark Warner. (We know what happened to each of their political careers after that). (2002)
The $950 million represented a 70% reduction in the tax, so logic concludes that the General Assembly, and the then GOP controlled House and Senate (who came to majorities on the NO Car Tax Pledge), only had to fund another $300 million to eliminate the Car Tax.
My contention has always been, why cut a deal with Democrat Gov. Warner, to cap the Car Tax Elimination, and break their pledge to the voters, but fund continued elimination at $50,000,000 per year?
Now, before the the detractors move in with their complaints, first address, that when Gov. Tim Kaine needed $4 billion dollars to plug his budget gap, no one went after the $950 million set aside for PPTRA. The voters would have crucified you….
The PPTRA is it is a direct benefit to every VA citizen that owns a car. The teachers, the cops, the fireman, the librarian, the tax payer, etc….
Only one VA Senate Candidate I know of, Jeff Frederick, has the back bone to call for the final elimination of the Car Tax, and that is why he should be in the VA Senate… because the man was Tea Party, before the Tea Party Movement ever took a hold in VA…
The VA GOP was swept into a historic majority for the first time with Gov. Gilmore in 1998, with the Car Tax Elimination pledge, and then the GOP Senate lost it’s majority when they broke their pledge to the voters/tax payers…
Virginia will recover, and when we do, will we finally direct the funds to eliminate the Car Tax? You know when the economy recovers tax revenues will recover $4 billion dollars… will the VA GOP have the guts to fund the $400 million, (10%) necessary to eliminate the Car Tax?
To clarify the above statement… Instead of the Senator Chichester cutting a deal to cap the Car Tax Elimination at $950 million. All the Va GOP had to do was continue the elimination at $50 million per year, for six years….
Meanwhile, and I do not have the exact budget numbers in front of me… VA’s Tax Revenues went up like $6 billion dollars! (2002 – 2008) i.e. They only needed to dedicate 5% of the budget?
If it were in place now, our economy would have $300 million in tax payers pockets, and not, ahem ‘invested’ in govt’ expenditures… Which one will bring Virginia’s economy out of the recession first?
Wait for your next Car Tax bill, and think about it again…
but why would the State decide to interfere with a local jurisdiction ability to control their own fiscal destiny – and be held accountable for it by local voters?
It makes no sense.
Why not pick on property taxes and take than away and reimburse from the state level also?
I thought Conservatives were for more local govt and less state level dictates?
How exactly does the car tax mess “contribute” to more transparency and accountability for taxation at the local level?
this is just plain old ideological idiocy… in my view.
If the State thinks that localities are abusing the car tax – why not restrict it or take it away or cap it rather than the solution that was chosen?
it was just plain dumb.
it violates everything Conservatives say about the virtues of local governance and the evils of big govt.
but leave it up to Conservatives to try to make silk purses out of their ideological sows ears.
want more Gil-moron politics in Va? Nope.
3 + 3 does not equal 7……….no matter how many sturdy backbones are in place to say it does!!!
Look, I forget which honest VA politician said it, but “you send it (to Richmond), and we will spend it”!
The solution is a VA Constitutional Amendment eliminating the Car Tax for personal automobiles.. The math is simple, if we are at 60% reimbursement to the localities at $950M, or roughly a billion.. then another $400 M is necessary for full reimbursement.
What I am saying is VA’s economy will recover, and when the General Assembly opens it’s present from the economy of another $4 billion in surplus (over the next 8 years)… can we not dedicate $400M to fully fund PPTRA? 8 year plan, $50 M per year…..
Every year we hear we need more for Education, Fire, Police, whatever… The teachers, fire fighters, police officers, other govt employee et al, and every one else that owns a car benefits, and for goodness sakes, please let the tax payer get a break for once?
Go to the Auditor of Public Accounts web site, and see what each locality gets in PPTRA. I have to dig up my old numbers, but Augusta County, the City of Staunton, and Waynesboro, (rather small localities) have gotten close to a billion dollars in PPTRA since inception in 1999. That’s real money straight into the local economy.
For instance, if the General Assembly found a $400M surplus this next session, and simply funded the PPTRA, how much would it put in your households pocket? The locality gets the $$$, replaces the tax bill to the citizen… and boom right before Christmas 2011, each household in VA, will have on average $200… to put in the local economy, and guess what, if it all went to Wal Mart for Christmas, the State and locality, would get 5% or more on the sales tax….
How about for new car sales, which are in the toilet? You ever think, you’d like to have that new car… sure hate getting that dern extra $200 in taxes every year though!
The Commonwealth’s coffers are doing just fine folks, and when the General Assembly gets, and they have $2Billion surpluses, in the good times, they declare, “Oh it’s a tight budget year’, but we’ll some how manage… BS! They hand out the goodies, and still it costs $40 to renew the tags on your car, and other ‘user’ fees…?
The local car tax was originally enabled in order for the localities to have the ability to locally tax and locally fund, deputies, teachers and local transportation needs. A local decision.
Why was it transferred to Richmond?
What was the justification for that?
If people like Gilmore and legislators felt the “hated” car tax was being abused – they could have easily put limits on it like they have on BPOL and other local taxes.
what kind of sense did it make for the State to start paying it out of General Fund/Income/sales taxes?
ultimately it boils down to whether the locality needs a deputy or teacher or not and how they would go about funding it.
That decision ought to be best made – locally – not by Richmond.
It’s as if Gilmore decided that localities were charging “too much” for real estate and property taxes and decided to transfer that function to Richmond. Here we have a supposedly “little” govt Conservative creating a “big govt” solution to a non-problem.
Nothing has been gained by doing this and significant issues have been created when there was no need to do so in the first place.
Beyond state-specified minimum standards for education and public safety – the locality and it’s citizens should decide how much they want and can afford – not Richmond.
We have all these folks running around with totally bizarre ideas about issues like this and they call themselves “Conservatives” but their philosophy is not conservative at all but dysfunctional.
The car tax reimbursement deal was an abortion of governance IMHO.
@Larry G:
Don’t be disingenous.
The General Assembly does send each locality funding for police, fire, education etc. annually, and lots of it!
In this case, The General Assembly is sending a dollar for dollar reimbursement to localities to replace the tax the citizens were paying on the first $20,000 of a cars value. i.e. it was targeted for the working class. If you have a $50,000 vehicle, you can still pay taxes on the $30,000 Larry, at the rate your locality chooses.
How about giving the working class an actual break? You could take that $950 M set aside annually now, and give it to ‘education’, and ya think the kids will be any smarter? Heck no…
But will working class parents have some extra cash to spend on their kids, especially right before Christmas? Yes.
” The General Assembly does send each locality funding for police, fire, education etc. annually, and lots of it!”
Oh they do. But it’s considered to meet absolute minimum standards and the the laws of Virginia were explicitly designed to allow the PEOPLE in a given locality to decide how much they want to pay in taxes – NOT JIM GILMORE.
He substituted his judgment for voters – a “big govt” approach.
Give the working class a break.
That’s exactly what I favor – is to let them decide how much they want in services and how much they want to pay in taxes – not someone who does not even live in that county.
Admit it SPANK. It was and remains a really bad, dumb idea.
Virginia is one of the more strict Dillon Rule states anyhow. The state determines what can be taxed and even how much but at the end of that process – you trust the people who pay the taxes to decide – not some fool in Richmond who knows nothing about each of the county’s unique issues.
If Gilmore and the folks on his team with that idea REALLY wanted to empower voters – they would have advocated that each county allow citizens to initiate referenda to get rid of any taxes they did not like or to limit them.
That’s the BEST KIND OF GOVERNANCE and that’s a very legitimate Conservative ethic.
Gilmore’s approach was paternalistic arrogance that Conservatives often accuse liberals of.
Fess UP SPANK – you know that Gilmore had it wrong.
Larry, you are still being disingenuous.
When Gov. Gilmore was elected (1998) the economy was roaring, and Wall Street was boiling up a dot. com market bust (2001). Literally tax revenues were going up by billions. Rather than let the General Assembly spend like the drunken sailors they are; he decided to target an onerous tax; that was hurting the lower, and middle class citizens, (although it did provided tax relief to everyone with a car).
Unfortunately limited to a four year term, was only able to achieve a 70% elimination. Then (candidate for Gov.) Mark Warner vowed to fulfill the phase out, and of course lied… working with Chichester to cap it, and the GOP lost it’s Senate majority shortly thereafter.
Now, you are talking like an establishment Senate/GOP type that used everything but the facts to cap the Car Tax eliminaton…. even saying, it’s not ‘Conservative’?, to let the citizens keep $950M of their tax dollars every year?
I’m sure you would like to propose some pie in the sky, ‘Conservative’ Tax relief for the poor ‘working class stiffs’ you pretend to advocate for… but get this…. Gov. Gilmore’s policy enacted in 1999, and still delivering today, has sent at least $10 billion dollars back to Virginia’s citizens….
You say:
“not some fool in Richmond who knows nothing about each of the county’s unique issues.”
The problem.. Larry, is that the 140 fools in Richmond, who act like Santa Claus every time they are in Richmond, (to divide the spoils of excess tax revenue.. among the ‘interests’) are not about to give a tax break to the citizens, because it inhibits, their main power… to distribute the purse…
They aren’t going to give that power up… Gov. Gilmore’s Car Tax Elimination is the largest tax break in the history of the Commonwealth, bar none… amazing how a Conservative like you would be decrying such a thing?
Spank – I do not think I’m being disingenuous. I was pretty clear that local issues involving taxation are best resolved by local citizens – which I assert is a core Conservative philosophy.
If you felt the car tax was an unpopular tax – any more or any less than say a BPOL tax then why not let the local citizens decide?
Mr. Gilmore could have advocated a mandatory referenda for each county to let citizens decide to either keep or do away with the car tax rather than letting Richmond decide.
and hey.. I HATE the car tax and I STILL get a DANG bill so what got better?
Larry:
If you can’t love the Tax Break you want… Love the Tax break ya got! I cannot think of any tax breaks the General Assembly has enacted since Del. Ben Cline’s state income tax cut in 2008 or 2009. It was a small cut negotiated with Kaine, for some reason.
I would suggest you start advocating for the fully funded PPTRA, at $400M, and you will see the tax on the first $20,000 go bye, bye.
The GOP would be a lock on getting the Senate back, and keeping it! Who wrote the book about politics being sausage in Virginia? Barnie Day maybe? The main Conseravative goal is to let the citizens keep excess taxes…. because if you send it, they’ll spend it!
The way I see it, the General Assembly always is increasing funding to whatever interest is making the most noise….. they never go into session trying to figure a way to fund a tax cut, because RINOs are always there to get money to the ‘interests’… Typically wealthy developers in NOVA….
oh, I meant to say the GOP would be a lock on getting back a majority if they made PPTRA elimination a plank in their platform, as too why the GOP should be in a majority.
I’d rather see Richmond let the localities decide their level of taxation which they do anyhow because if you take away one tax, they’ll have to make it up on another – OR the voters will decide.
You did not give a tax cut. You just screwed up taxation and made in more complicated than it needed to be but worse than that – you made it even less transparent and less accountable to local citizens.
you basically voted for Big govt, guy.
Isn’t it odd to have the guy who calls himself a an anti-RINO arguing in favor of Richmond-centric govt control of local taxation.
Let Richmond deal with the things Richmond should be dealing with and let the localities take care of their responsibilities – and trust local voters to hold their local officials accountable.
they’ll do a whole lot better job of that – than trying to keep elected GA accountable.
I hope I’m having an impact on your thinking. You really do need to reconsider the mess that Mr. Gilmore created – good intentions maybe but an abortion of true Conservatism.
Larry:
You are so right… my Conservative thinking is not ‘pure enough’. I need to be sent to a re-education camp.
Meanwhile, the PPTRA has personally save me well over a thousand dollars in actual income… cry me a stream of tears for the Democrats, and Rinos who can’t get their hands on that money, to grease the ‘interests’.
Your arguments against saving me even more money in the years ahead makes me think you like to obfuscate issues, for the purpose of expanding govt. through increased taxation.
Sister Mary Joseph always told me that 2 + 2 never equals 7. No matter which pot it comes from, bills still need to be paid…….
geeze Spank – all I’m saying is that the best govt is one where local citizens are allowed to hold local elected officials accountable for taxing and spending … and what Gilmore did was make things less transparent.
saving money is a good thing but ultimately what we ought to be concerned about is more/better transparency at the local level and let citizens hold their local elected accountable.
Imagine the consequences of expanding the car tax deal to real estate taxes!
want to get my vote? Have the Republicans support local referenda for proposed tax increases!
That is fine locally…..but how does one construct anything of state-wide sue……like roads……..universities?
there is plenty for the state to concern itself with – like roads and other state-level needs without having to be involving itself in local issues.
I’m not saying the State should not be involved at localities affairs at all, but I am saying that local citizens holding local elected officials accountable for taxing and spending is a good model of governance and the state’s primary interest in that ought to be to preserve it and if anything increase transparency rather than injecting itself into the issue.
Let me give a good example. Every year, the Auditor of Public Accounts publishes a Comparative Report of Local Government which is possible because the state requires each county to report it’s finances on a standard template.
that’s a legitimate function of the State Government and it permits citizens to compare their county with others on taxing and spending and it’s a powerful tool for transparency and accountability.
But try to understand how the car tax works now. It’s been royally messed up in terms of citizens understanding it.
that’s a bad thing, not a good thing, even if it was done as Spank asserts on – good intentions.
Usually, it’s the liberals who are accused of screwing things up with big govt good intentions.
In this case, if the State (or Gilmore, or the Republicans) felt that localities were abusing the car tax, then there would have been a number of ways to stop it or bring more accountability instead of essentially taking over the taxation (and reimbursement) function.
I truly think what Gilmore did was to weaken and undermine the ability of citizens to hold local govt accountable for taxation.
Mr. McDonnell has to write a budget. Let’s see what he does about it.
Larry says:
“But try to understand how the car tax works now. It’s been royally messed up in terms of citizens understanding it.”
Please recount the ways, how did the PPTRA mess up how citizens understand the tax?
I can tell you one thing, if the Chichester, hadn’t have cut a deal with Mark Warner, they would understand that the first $20,000 of the tax on the vehicles, was gone.
Look, you obviously are a wonk for local taxation, which is cool with me… and pointing towards the Auditor of Public Accounts is perfect, because that is how I assembled all the PPTRA payments to the localities… Great website, and agency, I even wrote LG Bolling, and asked for the GOP Leadership, to actually increase it’s funding..
But, do you seriously think Joe Six Pack takes a minute to analyze their own localities budget? They don’t… I mean arguing that the PPTRA has somehow mystified the tax payer on the Car Tax is…
Tell you what, I would rather see us move to consumption (sales) taxes, and away from Real Estate, and personal property taxes… but you think the General Assembly will do it?
No, because like my former delegate told me, their philosphy is a wide, shallow tax on everything that moves, grows, exists in the economy… Look at the food tax? We shouldn’t tax food… prepared I understand, but not groceries..
That is the nature of the General Assembly… So what I am begging you to understand, is we have a mechanism now to take excess revenues, and send them to the localities to replace the Car Tax…
If you think the General Assembly is interested in changing the system…. look at privitization of the ABC stores?
We have to accept some things that are not perfect, but work….
a “wonk”? naw… you mentioned the Tea Party – the heart of their ire if government that is no longer transparent, accountable, responsive and Conservatives have also said that the best governance is the kind that is closes to the people.
and I AGREE with them.
SOME THINGs have to be done by the State and the Feds although I’m sure there are disagreements about what but there should be no disagreement about local government and the things it does provide to citizens through taxation – AND be accountable for those decisions.
I just think the state has enough on it’s plate without interfering with the localities ability to provide services, facilities and infrastructure.
Heck, in 46 other States, they even take care of their own roads. This is no VDOT-maintained subdivisions or 600 series roads – they are county maintained and county (citizen) funded.
You say you figured out the car tax from the VAPC comparative reports. How? I don’t remember seeing a category for car taxes.
but your premise about Joe SixPack is off base. Joe knows about local taxes. He knows how much money he has to write a check for to the county (as opposed to keeping track of how much income and sales tax he pays).
And you WANT Joe SixPack to continue to know how much he pays in local taxes – as well as what he is getting for them – and every 4 years (I wish more often) let his elected officials know.
Gilmore put a major DING in this in my view.
He used BIG GOV to interfere with local taxation to no good purpose because his premise seemed to be that the localities were taxing the wazoo out of cars and not spending the money properly – that they were wasting it somehow.
He ASSUMED this for all 133 Va localities.
Now how misguided (arrogant?) is that?
The Republicans seem to think that every single tax increase is unwarranted and wrong.
Here’s what I think.
I think it’s up to voters to make that determination – not the Republican Party.
The VAST, VAST majority of tax increases in Virginia both locally and at the state level have been for education, law enforcement and roads.
One could argue that we have more of these that we need or that these functions are not as cost-effective as they should be but if you really think tax increases for schools is unwarranted, then show how.
I would actually AGREE in part but a PRINCIPLED Conservative would identify WHERE the increased costs were spent and say why they were unwarranted because at the end of the day – some taxpayers are willing to pay for better libraries or better fire and rescue or better academic programs.
That’s a choice for voters and the debate should be over whether they want the increased services (or not) rather than a presumption that no tax increases are ever unwarranted but you never specify why.
We’ve had a series of tax increases locally and the no tax folks continue a drumbeat of condemnation but two of the strongest critics show themselves in pictures with their kids – while 90% of the tax increases went for – that’s right – schools that benefit their kids.
We need more honesty in the debate IMHO.
If local voters WANT to pay more for schools, roads, libraries what business is that of Richmond?
Shouldn’t that be for local voters to decide?
I think it is arrogant and paternalistic for someone who does not live in a county to decide that the county is “over taxing” it’s citizens.
That’s their call – not some guy who would be Gov.
If you want to empower Joe SixPack – support efforts at even more transparency and accountability.
For Instance – do you know for your own county Spank how much your country generates in Fuel Taxes and how much your county receives in maintenance, operation and construction funding?
I bet you have no clue as most Virginians ….
Finally – Consumption Tax – I AGREE but I’d ask are you talking about at the state or county or both levels?
For instance, would you agree to let the counties institute a consumption tax in lieu of a car tax and retire the car tax altogether?
Would you support requiring Va counties to take responsibility for local roads including subdivision roads (like 46 other states) and let VDOT concentrate on roads of state-wide significance like other state DOTs do?
There is a LOT OF ROOM for PRINCIPLED Conservatives on these issues IMHO.